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Tuesday, August 14, 2007
posted by Kyle Hampton | 12:40 PM | permalink
Charles Mitchell has a great discussion about the role of Rudy's religion and of religion in general in the presidential campaign.

A tease:
That's why we don't think evangelical voters should lose sleep over the many problems we see in Mormon theology--they, unlike Governor Romney's values on issues like life and marriage, will not affect his governance. But it is something different entirely to say that theology doesn't matter--that it doesn't "direct" one's actions as an officeholder (or just as a person) at all. And we should be wary of giving credence to that view by voting for one who expounds it.

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23 Comments:


I can see it now. Mitt is in NH at a Q & A session. A reporter asks, "Gov. Romney could you please tell us your temple name?" Mitt replies, "I cant tell you it's a secret." The reporter asks, Gov. Romney please tell us about the secret Mormon handshake." Mitt replies, "I cannot tell you it's a secret."
Every person in the state is going to ask himself, "I wonder how many other secrets Mitt has?"
Mitt will be sent home without any supper.
Secret handshakes, secret blood oaths, secret symbols, secret temple rituals, secret temple rooms, and even secret underwear. The reason the LDS is called a cult is because it is.

By Anonymous the mitt hits the fan, at August 14, 2007 at 2:33 PM  


What a great example of religious bigotry.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 14, 2007 at 2:46 PM  


I wonder if this insanely unethical reporter will also ask about preferred sexual positions or other absurdly personal and private information completely unrelated to the campaign.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 14, 2007 at 3:12 PM  


The ignorant Bigots are out in full force again today.
------------------------

The Masons are considered a cult by some.
The Masons are considered goofy by some.
The Masons are considered Dangerous by some.
The Masons are very SECREATIVE and may, or may not have a secret handshake and secret "Lodge Name"
Since I do not know if you are a Mason, I cannot tell you.
-----
US PRESIDENTS who were Masons:
------
GEORGE WASHINGTON
JAMES MONROE
ANDREW JACKSON
JAMES KNOX POLK
JAMES BUCHANAN
ANDREW JOHNSON
JAMES ABRAM GARFIELD
WILLIAM McKINLEY
THEODORE ROOSEVELT
WILLIAM HOWARD TAFT
WARREN GAMALIEL HARDING
FRANKLIN DELANO ROOSEVELT
HARRY S TRUMAN
GERALD RUDOLPH FORD
Lyndon B. Johnson (joined but only completed one of the three Masonic Degrees)
Believed to be Masons but membership in a SECRET Lodge has not been confirmed
THOMAS JEFFERSON
JAMES MADISON

By Anonymous GeorgiaMom, at August 14, 2007 at 4:06 PM  


When a candidate for national office is a card-carrying member of a cult religion it is no longer a personal matter. Mitt will have no choice but to throw in the towel. Speaking of choice. What is Mitt's position on abortion this week? It's going to be fun watching Mitt twist in the wind. Rudy wins the Iowa caucus, Rudy wins NH. Rudy wins SC. Game, Set, Match. Bye, bye Mitt.

By Anonymous mitt hits the fan, at August 14, 2007 at 4:08 PM  


Nice try georgiamom but the Masons are NOT a religious cult. I dont consider Masons to be cult members. If Mitt renounces the LDS cult and becomes a Mason I will vote for him. That's probably not going to happen because Mitt's pockets are being stuffed with Mormon money. The LDS is attemping to purchase this nomination. This will not be allowed to happen.

By Anonymous the mitt hits the fan, at August 14, 2007 at 4:16 PM  


Anonymous said...
What a great example of religious bigotry.

You almost got that right. You should have written ...
What a great example of religious
truth.

By Anonymous the mitt hits the fan, at August 14, 2007 at 4:19 PM  


You just said if he quit his church and joined the Masons you would vote for him. He would be the same exact person, so obviously he's well qualified to be president. Not that he needs your endorsement.

By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 14, 2007 at 4:35 PM  


The Masons ARE A RELIGIOUS CULT!!!
-----
I know they are because I decided they are.
Why is it you get to go around deciding what is and what is not a cult and I don't?
---
You know what over group is a religious cult?? The BOY SCOUTS!!! They have secret meetings in the woods where they dance around fires and strange three finger salutes to each other.
They wear exclusive uniforms and act entirely different than the little boys not in their weird CULT.
----

By Anonymous GeorgiaMom, at August 14, 2007 at 4:57 PM  


Mitt hits the fan,

What the hell does all that temple stuff have to do with ability to govern the country?
-
By the way, if you've had sincere, friendly discussions with LDS people you will learn that they openly discuss much of what you accuse them of treating with secrecy. Ever attended an LDS temple open house? I have. I've also attended open houses for Muslims and other groups. I'd venture to guess that you have not.
-
People profoundly smarter than you have no problem with LDS people holding political office--even running for president. What makes you so special to hold such positions?



Your logic hits the fan,
-
Mitt doesn't have a monopoly on switching positions. Yet, it appears he's the only one with the integrity to point out when he has done so.
-
Rudy was for partial-birth abortions. Now he's against them. He has done more abortion-related squirming and faith-related dodging than anyone in the field. Catholic in name only. That is what this thread is about. Rudy said it himself.
-
Rudy, in case you missed it, skipped the Iowa straw poll. Likely, that will lead to finishing outside the winner's circle when the caucuses occur. He's trailing in NH.
-
It appears you're either intoxicated or fail to pay attention to recent trends.



Don't feed the Trolls! He probably got kicked off several other blogs and needs his attention quota met, however he can get it. If we ignore him he will be forced to get his jollies somewhere else. Don't worry he won't change anyone’s mind.

By Anonymous Holmesless, at August 14, 2007 at 5:49 PM  


So... mitthitsthefan....

You get to decide who the cults are? That's great! So who else is a cult? Jehovahs Witnesses? 7th Day Adventists? Scientologists? Catholics?

Is anyone who has a secret a member of a cult? Or is it just someone who has a special place to go where others aren't invited? Or do they really have to have different underwear?

And what if I wanted to start a cult? What would I have to do? Do you need a secret hanshake for that? What about a secret knock? A password? Wow, this is starting to sound like the Rotary Club...

Anyway, let me know. Maybe I'll invite you with my secret sign... maybe the top half of a Jesus fish or something.



So... mitthitsthefan....

You get to decide who the cults are? That's great! So who else is a cult? Jehovahs Witnesses? 7th Day Adventists? Scientologists? Catholics?

Is anyone who has a secret a member of a cult? Or is it just someone who has a special place to go where others aren't invited? Or do they really have to have different underwear?

And what if I wanted to start a cult? What would I have to do? Do you need a secret hanshake for that? What about a secret knock? A password? Wow, this is starting to sound like the Rotary Club...

Anyway, let me know. Maybe I'll invite you with my secret sign... maybe the top half of a Jesus fish or something.



So... mitthitsthefan....

You get to decide who the cults are? That's great! So who else is a cult? Jehovahs Witnesses? 7th Day Adventists? Scientologists? Catholics?

Is anyone who has a secret a member of a cult? Or is it just someone who has a special place to go where others aren't invited? Or do they really have to have different underwear?

And what if I wanted to start a cult? What would I have to do? Do you need a secret hanshake for that? What about a secret knock? A password? Wow, this is starting to sound like the Rotary Club...

Anyway, let me know. Maybe I'll invite you with my secret sign... maybe the top half of a Jesus fish or something.



"Nice try georgiamom but the Masons are NOT a religious cult. I dont consider Masons to be cult members."


Comical. Why aren't Masons cultists? Because you don't consider them so. Why are Mormons cultists? Because you consider them so. This is a prime example of circular reasoning: They are because they are. Or, they aren't because they aren't. It's a falacious attempt at argumentation and simply is not based in any kind of logic (deductive or inductive). Only those as mentally inept as you could find any persuasion in your statements.


Georgiamom, on the other hand, was spot on w/an articulate and substantive comparison. Masons are more secretive than Mormons about membership, symbolism, etc. and have a history of being great statesmen. Mormon "secrets," which are completely unrelated to public policy or politics, are irrelevant in this forum and clearly give no indication of how a Mormon will act in public office. Compare Hatch & Reed.



Mormons and Mormon sympathizers always resort to name calling. That you can take to the bank.

By Anonymous the mitt hits the fan, at August 14, 2007 at 6:14 PM  


Gay Marriage

Mr. Romney agrees with 3000 years of recorded history.
He disagrees with the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts.
Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and woman and our Constitution and laws should reflect that. We must remember that every child deserves a mother and a father. Like Mitt, I believe each child in America has the right to have a mother and a father.
Mr. Romney recently said “It’s unfortunate that those who choose to defend the institution of marriage are often demonized.”

I am deeply touched by Mitt’s statement.
Hazing in the U.S. Army Infantry Bootcamp is tiddly winks compared to the Hazing liberals hand out if anybody stands up and defends their conservative values in the state of Massachusetts. I can personally attest that defending the traditional definition of marriage in Massachusetts is essentially considered criminal behavior.

May the next President of the United States reflect the values of those that founded this Country and not the values of an extremist sect of the population.

Stephen Dunne
Stephen@avisionofdemocracy.com
www.avisionofdemocracy.com



I served a mission in the Yucatan peninsula and was offered food from the most humble people. One day we were eating in a house where the dirt floor in the kitchen had turned into mud from the pig pen adjacent the house and the little girl threw up worms right in front of us, as a result of this exposure. This was one of many experiences eating next to swine that made me begin to appreciate the Savior's term to not cast your pearls before swine. After reading this bigotry I think my stomach turns even more and I understand why He compared this type of attitude to swine. You mock what you don't understand. I'll stick to Proverbs 12:23 A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness and 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Even leaders of Protestant churches at the highest levels and scholars at Harvard find many parallels of what happens in Mormom temples to those of ancient times...but then again...I shouldn't be casting anything your way...right?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 14, 2007 at 9:14 PM  


Don't feed the trolls.

I think Romney's position is slowly improving. Today ARG released a new poll that has Romney with 16% of national support, placing behind Rudy. Romney has consistently been hovering between 8-10% on ARG polls. This is a huge jump.



Why some people resort to bigoted, hated, un-Christlike comments about other peoples' religions and their doctrines baffles me - especially when these same people know NOTHING about what they are talking about, do not want to take the time to understand why people believe a certain way....or, what's worse, know why people believe a certain way, but still take the time to belittle their Faith!

I am a convert to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of nearly 22 years now. I discovered in my studies of the Old and New Testaments many striking parallels between the clothing worn in the ancient temples, as described in the Bible, and the clothing and garments worn by Latter-day Saints.

Now, this question is for those who do not seek to understand, and who seek to make a mockery of something I hold as sacred...

Do you mock the Catholic priest for the clothing he wears as a symbol of his devotion, and of the covenants that he made with God? He wears that clothing as a visible reminder of those covenants he made in the Catholic priesthood.

Do you mock my broher, the Jew, for the yarmulka or their undergarments as a sign of the covenants that they have made with God in the synogogue?

Do you make a mockery of my Muslim brothers and sisters for the religious clothing that they wear?

There is also my Lutheran brother who also wears sacred clothing as part of the covenants that he has made to uphold his priesthood.

What I am about to share with all those on here what I do in the temple...uh-oh...here come those bad secrets! By the way...anyone who visits any LDS congregation knows that we talk about these things openly in our Sunday school lessons - so it's not so secret as some would say on here!

When I attend the Temple, as a Latter-day Saint, I covenant with God that I will keep my body clean from alcohol, drugs, tobacco, tatoos, body piercings, and anything else that would defile the body that God has blessed me with.

I covenant that I will never ever neglect, dictate, abuse, or mistreat my spouse - NO exceptions! Through word or deed...as there are great punishments that will come upon any man that treats his wife with any disrespect.

Likewise, I covenant that I will also never ever abuse or neglect my children!

I covenant that I will continually keep the name of Diety as sacred, to never take the Lord's name in vain for His name is holy! Watch an episode of Friends, or almost any television show or movie and see just how widely broken this commandment is done.

I covenant that I will follow Christ and keep His commandments.

I covenant that, if need be, I would die for Christ and stand as a witness to His divinity as Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

I covenant that I will serve my fellow man...to treat ALL as equals and as brothers and sisters with love and respect.

I covenant to obey the laws of the land.

I covenant to pay an honest tithing.

I covenant to render service to the widow, the broken hearted, the handicap, the prisoner.

I covenant to obey the Sabbath day. Again, we see signs all around of just how widely broken this commandment is....shopping, recreation, hunting, etc.

Now, for all these covenants and more, I am given a holy garment that will serve as a constant reminder of the covenants I've made with the Lord in His holy temple. There is nothing magical about these garments; they do not render any power; and they are not even peculiar looking. They are just there to remind me of what I have promised the Lord to do for Him, and what He has promised to do for me in return for keeping these covenants.

Do not make a mockery of something that you do not choose to understand - that is considered holy to someone else!

BTW - it would be prudent and wise for you to study the Old Testament...when Jehovah commanded the children of Israel to wear certain garments after they went through the Tabernacle in the wilderness and the permanent temples as described throughout the Bible - and these garments worn by those in the Bible, as described in great detail, resemble those worn in the temples today. So, where's the secret if it's all recorded in the Old and New Testament, and still being practiced today?

By Anonymous Anonymous, at August 15, 2007 at 1:59 AM  


Hitthefanguy-


"Mormons and Mormon sympathizers always resort to name calling."


Not so. Of the dozen or so posters on this thread, only one Mormon sympathizer directly called names: me. The others were very civil. Also, one anti-Mormon called names: you. It seems you and I are the only two lacking the class shown by the average Mormon/Mormon sympathizer.


Here are a few of my rules for posting: (1a) Always substantively rebutt the argument to which I am responding or (1b) apologize for being wrong/inaccurate, etc. (2) Don't directly insult a poster unless he/she is a liar or a deflector.


You are a deflector. After your comically illogical argument was disected, you deflected w/circular reasoning. After I pointed that out, you deflected w/self-victimization. As far as I can tell, you're little more than an intellectually deficient bigot w/a penchant for deflection. You deserve no respect or civillity. That some have been respectful and civil anyway is a tribute to them. They give you what you don't deserve. I give you what you do.



Mr. Fan,
-
You ought to comment in ways that relate to the post. That's what most people do. You must love distractions and misdirecting discussion. Your bomb throwing is neither friendly nor productive.
-
I find it interesting that the associated post suggests that Mitt's faith poses no problem for Christians as it relates to the job at hand--the presidency. In fact, he's the candidate of choice for these guys. Surely, these evangelicals dislike Mitt's faith for other reasons: theological ones. It appears you do, too.
-
But, those concerns don't have the place you wish they did in this political context.
-
Keep working hard in your ministry or personal crusade against Joseph Smith, but get it into your head that we're not voting for theologian-in-chief. We need the best commander. This has already been debated ad nauseam.
-
Once you connect with the above principles, Mitt is a no brainer.




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